The Consultant Who Changed A Community
Barbara Docker-Drysdale, often called Mrs D or Pip, shaped modern therapeutic communities by focusing less on “fixing” children directly and more on building therapeutic skill in the adults around them. At the Cotswold Community she was brought in as a consultant psychotherapist to work primarily with staff teams, meeting weekly across households and school staff, plus individual sessions when needed. That structure matters for trauma-informed care because it creates repetition, shared language, and a dependable reflective space. In residential child care and foster care, the day-to-day micro-moments are the intervention, so the workforce needs support that is continuous rather than occasional.
A key tool Mrs D used was the need assessment, a structured formulation process that gathers observations from the whole team and turns them into a treatment plan that is reviewed and updated. This kind of clinical formulation in residential care stops the service from drifting into crisis management. It also prevents tunnel vision, because children show different parts of themselves to different adults. When cleaners, gardeners, maintenance staff, admin, teachers, and carers all contribute, the assessment becomes more accurate and more humane. The result is better therapeutic planning for complex trauma, attachment disruption, and emotional dysregulation, with clearer roles and fewer reactive decisions.
Her authority was grounded in lived practice. She began as a mother doing hands-on work with troubled children during the war years, later earning deep respect from residential staff because she understood the struggle from the inside. She also embodied therapeutic foster care in an early form by taking some children into her own home to support regression and “therapeutic management” across 24-hour care, echoing Winnicott’s thinking. In the consultancy, she was direct and sometimes didactic: she expected staff to read, discuss theory, and connect it to practice. The message was simple and demanding: you do not have to be a therapist to be therapeutic, but you do have to keep learning.
The episode also explores supervision and containment as the engine of effective therapeutic work. Mrs D expected staff to bring dilemmas, not performances, and she pushed teams towards self-awareness: knowing what belongs to you and what belongs to the child. That protects against projective identification, splitting, and the “get rid of the child” fantasy that can appear when teams feel overwhelmed. Containment is not only an emotional function of supervision, it is an organisational function backed by management alignment and a clear primary task. When leaders hold the frame and teams reflect together, empathy becomes sustainable, resilience grows, retention improves, and trauma-informed practice becomes real rather than a slogan.
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Transcript:
Colby 0:00
Welcome to the Secure Start podcast. Brought to you by the Secure Start Aura apps, supporting trauma-informed care and practice at home and in school.
John 0:17
But at the Cotts community, that wasn’t the case. She she was brought in by Richard Balburney primarily to work with the staff teams to really develop their therapeutic skills directly. The other reason I think my guess is that Richard Balburney brought her in was that he knew that she was very clear in her thinking. She was a strong person, she was a definite person, she was not afraid to tackle difficulties with and resistances in staff teams. She had the kind of strength of character and the strength of purpose to really make it clear to those people: look, you’ve either got to come with me and change or go. There is no half-mates, you can’t just sit on the fence and not really be supportive of this sort of therapeutic work. She really also encouraged people to become more self-aware. That was a key part of developing sort of therapeutic skills, that you needed to know what belonged to you and what belonged to others. Working at a place like the Cotswold community, she almost equated it to having a psychoanalysis because you just knew that almost every bit of yourself was going to become exposed sooner or later. Quite a significant number of people who work there went on to train as psychotherapists. A general sense of containment is crucial for therapeutic work to take place. I sort of think it was a really important place for that, for um in any organization to have a consultant that comes into work finally with a staff team. And to have that sounding board with somebody who’s chewed into the task, but he’s actually outside of it as well.
Colby 2:11
Yeah, well we said they’ve got lots of good comments. And it brought you out of retirement.
John 2:16
Yes.
Colby 2:17
Well, yes.
John 2:19
Mixed blessing that is. But it’s funny, you know, being retired now for 12 years or more, um, for 10 of those years, um, nobody bothered to contact me about anything. And suddenly, suddenly it’s all happened. It’s just I feel like one of those old, not that I I liken myself to a rock star, but I feel like one of those old rock stars who’s suddenly being asked to sort of play plays plays hit tunes again.
Colby 2:47
Yeah, yeah, yeah. Well uh yeah, sorry about that. Welcome to the Secure Star podcast. I’m Colby Pierce, and rejoining me for this episode is another former leader in the UK therapeutic communities and foster care sector. Before I introduce my guests, I’d just like to acknowledge the traditional custodians of the lands that I come to you from. The Ghana people of the LA Plains, and acknowledge the continuing connection the living Ghana people feel to land, waters, culture, and community. And also like my respects to their elders on prison and merge. Mike, this episode someone’s of course is John Witwell. For those of you who haven’t seen episode two yet, John was fully a UK registered psychotherapy and full member of the British Psychotherapy Foundation. John was also the chief. I recorded this podcast interview with John a week ago, and it seems fitting to share it in the week that months, the first anniversary of the Secure Stunner Podcast. I also note that we somewhat drew John out of retirement a year ago when we recorded that podcast. So welcome back to the podcast, John. Um it’s a real pleasure to have you back and particularly talking about this topic that we’re going to be talking about today.
Who Was Mrs D
John 5:19
Yeah, yeah. Well, I’m pleased to pleased to be back with you and uh continue the discussion here. Yes, yes.
Colby 5:26
So um what we’re we’re going to focus on a bit now is um, or in this podcast, is Barbara Docker Dreisdale. Now, Barbara, I I I just referred to her as Barbara, but my understanding is that she was referred to in different ways in different contexts. She was. Yeah. Well, you tell us what your recollection of that was.
John 5:52
All right. Well, to her close friends and and very close colleagues, um, she was known as Pip. Right. Um, that was her pet name, her pet family name, and a few people used that, including myself at the time when I was sort of after I’ve sort of been working with her for a few years. But most of the people at the Cotsall community, the boys, referred to her as this, and also most of the staff as Mrs. D. Um, I can never recall her being referred to as Barbara. Um, and and Dr. Drysdale is obviously potentially quite a mouthful, and you’re sort of repeatedly over and over again. So Mrs. and interestingly, when I the conference that there was recently about her, I I I found myself being in a bit of a conflict as to what how I should refer to her, because after you know 25 or more years since I worked, since I knew her and worked with her, calling referring to her as Pip just felt didn’t feel quite right. So I found myself referring to her as Mrs. D, and and probably will do today as well. I mean, it’s kind of an easy point of reference, really.
Colby 7:06
Yes, and of course, as I’ve mentioned in the in the intro, pre-recorded intro, I’m getting very organized now. Um uh I mentioned that she was the founder with her husband of the the Mulberry Bush, and uh and I’ve had Richard Rollinson on a couple of times, and I think he refers to her as Mrs. D as well in our conversations. I have heard her referred to as Mrs. Doc, well, Barbara Docker and Barbara Docker Drysdale. I think, yeah, uh in different contexts. So yeah, she kept the mystery going a bit uh at the time.
John 7:45
Yeah, I’ve got a her maiden name actually was uh Gordon. Oh really? Her father was professor of surgery at uh Trinity College in Dublin, and he was and he was Thomas Gordon. And um but yeah, so Docker Drysdale was very much her husband’s for because I at first I thought one of them would be Docker and the other would be Drysdale, and they combined it. No, it wasn’t. He obviously was a Docker Drysdale, and she she took that name when they married.
Colby 8:18
Well, not to sound frivolous, uh, but um no one called her Mrs. D squared for the two D’s. It’s a different time, I guess.
John 8:28
Sometimes I do sometimes write Mrs. D D. Yeah, but yeah, that’s aye aye.
Why Cotswold Needed Her
Colby 8:35
And of course, she we like when we last spoke, podcast number two, um, we’ll be 42 this one, uh, when it comes out. But uh when we last spoke, we talked about how well you you um spoke of how she was the initial consultant, I guess, to the Cotswell community after it became a therapeutic community for unintegrated boys. Is that is my memory correct around that? Yeah, more or less.
John 9:07
I mean, she Richard Balburney uh started the transformation at the Cotswell community in 1967, and he he he called on quite a few people to help him initially, um, because he was he was pretty well connected, and um and he obviously I mean I don’t know this for sure, but I my imagination tells me that when he was an educational psychologist um in in Oxfordshire, that’s how he came into contact with Mrs. Drysdale at the Mulraybush. And my guess is that she even she even used him as an educational psychologist in in her work there. Um so it was probably quite natural for him to think of calling on her to help out because she I don’t think she joined really till about 1969. So that was a year or two into the transformation process, and um he she was appointed as the consultant psychotherapist primarily to work with the staff teams, and that’s the big difference because I think obviously at the Mowraybush, she was very hands-on with all the children there and uh was was a central person to it, both as a therapist and and uh and and somebody who was right there in the middle of it. But at the Cotzall community that wasn’t the case. She she was brought in by Richard Balburney primarily to uh work with the staff teams to really develop their therapeutic skills directly, so that the so, in a sense, her work with the with the with the children at the Cotsaw community was by proxy, and um she did occasionally uh see one of the boys there, but that was probably when she was asked to specifically when we were uh really quite puzzled by something, and thought it probably needed her expertise to help us unravel our own thinking. Um but that was that wasn’t very often. Um but yeah, it it and I think the uh the other reason I think my guess is that Richard Balburney brought her in was that he knew that she uh was very clear in her thinking, she was uh a strong person, she was a definite person, she was not afraid to tackle difficulties with and resistances in staff teams. And uh and Richard Balburney had an awful lot of that to deal with because he didn’t have the luxury of closing the Coxaw community and reopening it with a new staff team and new new children in uh brought in. He had to make the changes on the hoof, and uh the resistance that he met initially was huge. And uh and Mrs. Drysdale refers to it quite a lot in because she she had the sense that people thought that the that what she was proposing was by some people uh was quite bonkers, and that actually if they just kick if they just kept quiet long enough, it would all they would all disappear and it would all go back to how it all how it was. I mean that was that was a sort of underlying feeling from quite a number of people. And then gradually, I mean, she was that she had the kind of strength of character and the strength of purpose to really make it clear to those people look, you you’ve either got to come with me and change or go. There is no half major, you can’t you can’t just sit on the fence and not really be supportive of this sort of therapeutic work. And um I I sometimes wonder with all the kind of difference in the sort of regulations and the HR procedures and so on. I mean, I wonder how that would all go down nowadays. Maybe it would be a bit tougher thing to do than it was then in the in the late 60s, early 70s.
Colby 13:00
Perhaps we’ll come back to that. Um interest it what I drew from what you just said then is uh it or a little bit earlier was that uh she wasn’t doing the work for the staff. She was she was helping the staff, training the staff, supporting the staff to do the therapeutic work themselves.
John 13:21
Yeah, very much so. That and you know, she she wouldn’t she had weekly meetings with all the staff teams. I mean, there were four four households, four group living households, and then there was also the school. She met with each of the household teams once a week, and she met with the school staff once a week as well. And so, and though those members of the school staff that were involved with a particular household were also joined that meeting as well. Um so she she had really regular contact, and not only that, she would have enough time to uh see uh individual staff members, not every week, but maybe every two or three weeks, she’d get a chance to have an individual session with her. So she she had a she had a she had a good sort of sense of what was really going on and and where the support was needed.Colby 14:15
It sounds like she was there for you know she was there a significant um length of time each each week, uh long enough to do all of those things.
Need Assessments And Treatment Planning
John 14:25
Yeah, two to three days a week, depending on it varied a bit from time to time. But it was that was that’s yeah, absolutely. And interestingly, she worked for quite short periods of time. I mean, unlike most psychotherapists, probably who would think, well, a team meeting should be at least an hour and a half. I mean, hers were shorter than that. They were they could be under an hour. And that suited her style because I mean she she she was quite quick to reach a uh to reach some advice. I mean a lot of the time that she spent in those team meetings were going through uh need assessments that were done by the the staff team had the responsibility of of going through a need assessment, and this was following the format that she developed at the Mulrie Bush. Um and if anybody really wants to see what that’s like, there there is a paper on my website which she wrote, which is available, and just look under Barbara Docker Drysdale need assessment, you can find it. But it goes through the various stages in the need assessment of what people what what the teams were asked to consider. Um and then she would review that need assessment with the team together and come to a conclusion about what’s the nature of the treatment plan. And then every few months that would be reviewed and updated and so on. That was quite a that was quite a key part of of the nature of her consultancy.
Colby 15:57
And I I would also say hearing you talk about what the work that she did as a consultant, I wonder how that compared to other uh therapeutic communities in the UK at the time. Um and also look, I can tell you I have been myself been a consultant to um a therapeutic caregiving program. Um in fact, more than one. And um I would love to have had two to three days a week. I was lucky to have had half a day a fortnight or a day a month. Um with those. So that that’s quite quite a difference in terms of the amount of time spent with that that she had at that time.
John 16:46
Yeah, and I suppose it links to the fact that she she decided to step away from the mulberry bush at about that time. I mean, the mulberry bush was going through its own sort of evolution because obviously when she and her husband um Stephen, who used to, by the way, while we’re talking about names, was always referred to as Docker, um when when she and her husband were right in the thick of starting the mulberry bush and running it and being there, and then she sort of stepped back partially from that to become the therapeutic advisor rather than the rather than involved in the day-to-day management as well. Um and then, of course, when uh different somebody came in to to to run the Mulrebush, and she was gradually pulling away from the central central part of the of the Mulraybush, and and I suppose that was the time when Richard Balburney approached her. So she she she she really had all pretty much all her time to she could devote that she wished to to uh the Cotswell community, which so we were very fortunate in that. Um there weren’t necessarily going to be so many people around anyway, of her ability and experience who could even even if we wished to have devoted that amount of time.
Authenticity From War Years Work
Colby 18:06
What struck you about her when you met when you went to the Cotswell community and met her, um and as you got to know her, I wonder also what you how you thought she was different to other uh therapeutic or leaders in the sector uh at that time.John 18:27
Um I mean I think I I mean she was just so clear in her thinking. I mean she’d obviously had all those years of of working things out at the Mulribush. Um I mean it was very I I should start in another place actually. Um when I was researching for this conference about her work a few weeks ago, I came across a really interesting obituary written by Crispy Dell. And Crispy Dell was a uh senior lecturer at Bristol University in the advanced social work course there. Uh I was fortunate enough to do that course with him, so I got to know him well. Um, but he was also very involved with the Mulberry Bush Road. He was part of the sort of managing committee of the Mulberry Bush Road for quite a few years. Um and when she he he he wrote her oration when she was awarded an honorary degree at Bristol University. Um but he he kind of referred to um her history in how she got into the work and how she started during the the war years uh running a play group in her village, and then people started to notice that she was particularly good with uh troubled children, very young children. She understood them, she had a way with them, they they gravitated towards her, and uh that reputation grew. And so not only was it with the vacue children, but other children as well, including some older children who were referred to. I mean, they were she was she was asked to help, and it was that sort of uh reputation which led the uh the home office and the government at the time to encourage her and her husband to start the the Mowbray bush. So her background wasn’t and I mean Crispy Dell in his in his obituary likened her to um people who who who gained there a lot of valuable experience during the war years. Um Bowlby was one, Anna Freud and Winnicott. He made the big he made the key difference was that they were already psychoanalysts. She was starting off as a mum. And that so her experience was was grounded in in actually doing the work with children, and it kind of gave her, I’m not suggesting that the other people weren’t authentic, of course they were, very much so, but it gave her an authenticity with people, particularly in the residential work sector, who kind of sensed that she knew where where they were coming from, that she knew instinctively their struggles. And and while she didn’t necessarily collude with that and just say, Oh, poor old you, you we can. I mean, she she never she nevertheless kind of did give you that sense of okay, I understand this, and and and this is how I kind of recommend that you think about this in a in a maybe in a slightly in a different way. Um so I I think that was one of the things that I I I personally valued about it when I encountered her. That uh and I think that was one of the reasons why she was also different to you asked what differences there might have been with other therapeutic communities, to have someone like her um. Really guiding the therapeutic work of the community was quite really unusual. I mean, I know that there were so many different styles of therapeutic community, it’s kind of different to make a comparison. I mean, the the Mulderbush and the Costell community were fairly different in the sense that of actually having sort of treatment programs for so-called emotionally unintegrated children. I mean, that wasn’t that that wasn’t terminology which was particularly widespread around the whole of the sector of therapeutic communities at all. And um and and some of the therapeutic communities tended to work mainly in large groups as well and have large group meetings, which again wasn’t wasn’t the characteristic of uh the Mulberry Bushel or or the Coltsall community. So yeah, I I think that was that was a really important part of appreciating what she had to offer, really, which was um which I think was very different from from many other places.Colby 23:04
I think you um you’ve you’ve hit on something that I think is really important when you talked about how the staff she she was coming to the work as as a mum, you know, rather than as a um person with a professional qualification. Um and I think that as you you referred to authentic, um, and you I think um unless you’re in the work, and I found this over my career that um that not just staff in uh residential care, children’s residential care, but but across the sector as well, they do bring with them this this uh um idea that if you haven’t done the work, then how would you know? You know, how how how would you why would you why should we stop and listen to you? Get something similar in schools as well. You know, if you’re if you’re a consultant to a school or you’re asked in to talk about the work uh in a school, often you’ll meet that um resistance, um, well, it can be resistance, it can just be also skepticism of of the worth of your input if you haven’t done the work yourself.
Direct Style Reading And Training
John 24:22
Yeah, yeah. And of course, the other thing which I think led to that author sense of authenticity was that, and Winnicott refers to the fact that that he he referred children to her to have uh therapeutic care, and she actually took some children in into her own home, her own home. Um, so you could say she was a kind of very experienced therapeutic foster carer before even people began to think of it like that. And and the reason that she had them in her own home, that she was helping to manage their regression, because that wasn’t something that could easily be done in once or twice a week therapy. And Winnicott knew that. He I mean he referred to the need for some patients needing therapeutic management, not just therapy, and by that he I understand that he meant they needed their day-to-day, their they needed 24-hour care. They needed they needed somebody who was not just thinking of one or two hours a week and uh and and was able to support that young person through through a regressed period of their life, if they needed to regress in order to pretend later progress. So that again was something that we all knew she’d done that, and um and and so you know she which she deserved to be really listened to and taken and taken notice of.
Colby 25:54
Yeah, yeah.
John 25:54
Mind you, she she she would make sure she was listened to as well. I mean, she had a very direct and almost didactic style, which again is not that usual in in a lot of psychotherapists, if I may say so. Um and uh and probably wouldn’t even be well, how can I say, probably probably some people would would would worry about that style, but I mean, in the in the circumstances that we were in at the Cotsaw community, it was exactly what we needed. Yeah, um tell us more about that. Tell us more about that style. Um well, I mean, to give you one example, I mean it’s a sort of partly amusing, but it’s but it’s actually actually happened, and Patrick re Patrick Tomlinson reminded me of it recently. Um, and that is that uh she was very keen that we that we read about the work, and uh particularly Winnicott’s work and also some of her own papers, and she would recommend others as well. And now and again she would she she would test out whether what we were reading. So she would ask us straight out, what are you reading now? And word would go round all the staff teams that Mrs. D has is focusing on reading, so everybody’s starting to make sure they they were reading something. But I mean, she she kind of knew kind of she knew how to crack the whip sometimes with with with that, and she also ran uh a weekly training group for staff, um where people from the from the different households would come together and uh they would have they were given a paper to read, they’d expect they were expected to read it and come and discuss it and refer to their own examples and in their work and uh and and so on. And that that was that again was a great privilege to have that to uh because we have we had to we had to face the fact that most of the people coming into the work, well certainly at the Cotswell community, were not qualified therapists by any means. No, they were they were often mainly certainly for the group living households, they would be mainly in their early to mid-twenties. They’d probably shown uh a great interest in children in different ways. Um, but they needed and and and great empathy, and they had all the they they had qualities that we were looking for, but those qualities needed to be developed to work therapeutically. And that’s where the the training program was is important, also alongside the kind of week week in, week out supervision that she was providing as well. Um and and it was it was quite amazing to see how young teams, when you when you looked on paper, they say, well, they haven’t got a vast amount of experience, but actually the quantum quality of the work could be quite extraordinary and the enthusiasm that the people could have, they they they weren’t burnt out, people who’d been in the work too long. They had a lot of enthusiasm and um identified with the work, with the primary task, they they understood that and um were in fact they came to work at the community because they um they they they heard about the primary task, they began to they kept they kept they visited and saw it and and and had a a feeling to that they wished to really wish to do that, which again was a good place to start. Um that at least the people coming in at the very least wanted to do that work or they imagined that they wanted to do it. Obviously, they they they they would be confronted probably by more difficulties than they probably even imagined would be there, but nevertheless, they had that drive initially, which was really important.
Primary Task And Tavistock Influence
Colby 29:54
There’s a couple of things that I want to just pick up on. One is that um a previous guest on the podcast, Megan Corcoran, uh, said something I thought that was really profound, um, which was that you don’t have to be a therapist to be therapeutic. Absolutely. And uh the other thing that has come up, a theme that has come up multiple times through the various podcasts has been the issue of alignment, um, consistency and alignment in in a service. And um that I think uh Tom Ellison in particular talked very persuasively about uh the importance of a primary task, and um and it sounds like uh no matter where they came from, there were there was this shared alignment, but this shared commitment to the primary task of the Cotswold community.J
ohn 30:55
Yeah, we we one of the other really important consultancies that we had, and this again is through the connections that Richard Balburney had, was with the Tavistock Institute. Yeah, and um uh again on my website you can see a whole series of working notes, and the first what the first two were done by uh a well-known um uh person in that field of the Tavistock Institute, AK Rice, Ken Rice, has actually got a as an AK Rice Institute, uh which is which has been developed in uh in the USA, and he he set out a framework for the community defining the primary task and explaining what the primary task was. That was back in say 1968. Um it wasn’t realized then at the time when he wrote that that the majority of the children that we’d be working with would be emotionally unintegrated children. Because it it it only became clear probably over the next couple of years that that was going to that was going to be a shift in the primary task. Um and and again that also linked to Barbara Docker Drysdale’s work too, um having an influence on that. But the primary task was that then unfortunately Ken Rice died after only writing two working notes, and then that was taken up and taken on by Isabel Menzies Lythe, who then wrote quite a number more of those. And again, she was another person absolutely focused on the primary task and continuously sort of pushing that into our thinking. Um and that’s where I had those examples of where you know everybody, whatever their role is, had to have that understanding of the primary task. They may not be working directly with children, they could be somebody who’s one of the admin staff and having to deal, but nevertheless, they’re having to deal with phone calls or something like that. And they, you know, they they needed to not just be irritated by something that was getting in their way or something that was stopping them writing something or typing something, understand that the the primary task was the dominant, and and it was quite legitimate for them to put something aside in order to support the primary task. Yeah.
Colby 33:26
I mean, people we’ve talked about been talking about the primary task, but just um just perhaps um tell us what the primary task was as as um as uh delivered it at that time.
John 33:42
Well the the the the the definition of the primary task which um Ken Rice and Isabel Mans’ life and then later Eric Miller always used to sort of state to us it it’s that task which has to be performed in order to survive. So that if you didn’t perform it, you would go out of business. And I mean that what was clear to us that we were our primary task was to treat and develop seriously emotionally damaged children who are referred to us, and the language was different then. Again, I in thinking about this podcast today, I was thinking so quite a lot of the language has changed. I mean, I I I probably still think of emotionally damaged children where now it’s kind of trauma-informed practice and and other and other words which aren’t which weren’t really available and available. And we used to talk about severely emotionally deprived children. Um and now I mean and and there weren’t many children that would be have been referred to as autistic. Um there wasn’t really in the thinking then the autistic spectrum. Um and probably, if truth be told, probably there could have been quite a number of boys that we were working with who’d who’d be now defined as being on the autistic spectrum. Um so yeah, though those were some sort of really quite, I think, significant differences at the time that I I’m talking about in the 70s, 80s, and 90s, really. Yeah.
Supervision As Self Awareness Practice
Colby 35:20
Um yeah. I think what I’m hearing is that she she spent shouldn’t refer to her as she, it’s um again, there there is there are some things that change and there are some things that uh remain the same, and referring to someone as she is still probably uh ill-manned of me, but um I’m not sure what to call her, but Mrs. Dockadrillisti it seems like she had a an instruction uh that she um followed in terms of uh the meetings, the supervision, the training that was delivered on a weekly basis, uh not all of those things weekly, I don’t think, but but um was delivered as part of her two to three days a week uh when she was in the Cotswold community. And the importance of supervision in this sector has been um brought up again and again um through these podcasts. And as I said earlier, your this will be for podcast 42 when it comes out. So um what do you what did what do you think was her views? What do you think was Mrs. Locker Dreisdal’s views around supervision and the the place and importance of it and what she expected staff to I guess input to it and get out of it?
John 36:55
Yeah, I mean she saw herself probably she would have seen herself probably as the as primarily a consultant rather than as a supervisor, although I think what she was providing was was actually supervision. Um she would expect people to bring to her things that they were worried about. Um she didn’t she she would be naturally worried if people only wanted to kind of bring their their good stories that showed how how great they were in their work. She knew how difficult the work was and wanted to help with people and it and hoped and expected that people would would really share their uh their real sort of dilemmas, the things that probably kept them awake at night. Um and I think she she really also encouraged people to uh to become more self-aware. That was a that was a a key part of um of of developing sort of therapeutic skills that you you needed to know what belonged to you and what belonged to others. And uh you know that that sounds so easy and trite to say it like that, but we all know that it’s it’s a really hard one process. And she used to talk about working at a place like the Cotswold community, she she almost equated it to having a psychoanalysis because you just knew that almost every bit of yourself was going to become exposed sooner or later. Um a lot of the children were experts at doing this. That was one of their defenses was to to spot all your all all the adults’ weaknesses. Um and over a period of time, this was this was you you were going to really feel as though you were put through it, and you you needed to be be as use it as a positive to become more and more self-aware. Um and and only then you could begin to understand what what was you and what wasn’t you, what what you if you had a feeling of something you could if you knew yourself well enough, you could be sure as to whether this was coming from the child or whether it was something that was being stirred in you and what that was about. Um and it and that’s such a kind of an important kind of skill to develop. I mean, obviously, uh psychotherapists that’s partly why they they go through such rigorous training because that’s that’s a sort of cornerstone of psychotherapeutic work to understand yourself what well enough to know what’s you and what isn’t you. Um so, but that was available to staff at the Cotswold community through that sort of supervisory consultation process. And I I think it’s not insignificant that a large proportion of well, so quite a significant number of people who work there went on to train as psychotherapists. Um and uh people like Patrick, who you who who you know well, Graeme Carriage, who you you also did a podcast with, who worked at the community. I mean, that and there’d be be many others who who, even if they weren’t directly involved in therapeutic work, would nevertheless refer back to that time as being very formative in their in their thinking. And um and and that I think is down to that sense of developing your own kind of self-awareness and beginning to be challenged and challenge yourself about that.
Colby 40:45
Um yeah, there’s there’s there’s so much to kind of pick up on. One thing I that uh an insight that that comes to me is that um especially working in this sector and coming to the sector as you talked about earlier, coming to the role with a genuine interest in um in providing a therapeutic experience for children and young people is going to track people, I guess, that are relatively sensitive to others and uh indeed empathic um who will feel for them. And and it’s that that feeling for the kids that that um often um it’s referred to perhaps at times as um projective identification uh in psychoanalytic terms, but that feeling for others, I think as you say, it it’s really important to know what’s yours and what’s theirs. But it’s somewhat ironical that the nature of people who are attracted to this role are probably a bit more vulnerable in a sense or suscepti uh likely to take on those projected feelings and experiences of others.
Resilience Retention And Stress Testing
John 42:02
Yes. Yes, I think that’s true. Interestingly, um we we went through uh Patrick would be able to speak at some depth about this because um he was very much involved in doing the defense mechanism test at the Cotswold community. Because we used to be we re we wanted staff to stay at least three years with us to provide enough continuity for the work. We really wanted staff to stay at least to sort of see through their their work with a child, beginning in the middle and an end to it. Um and that didn’t always happen, sadly. I mean, we’d like to think you know, majority of people did, and some stayed a good deal longer. But and we began to sort of try and understand what were we missing? Why why did we thought this person was going to be great, and yet they weren’t able to to uh to see it through. And so we we we we sought the help of a of a person called Olya Karlie, who had been studying the defense mechanism test. It was it was developed in in Sweden, so I understand, for uh looking at Swedish air air pilots uh in their air force who uh under stress were missing some vital information in their cockpit um leading to disasters. So the defense mechanism test was designed to look at uh how people coped under stress and how how they how they could see what was going on around them or not. I won’t go I won’t go into all the sort of details of that. But what it what it revealed was that sometimes the people who who Look the most brilliant and sparkle at the beginning, haven’t necessarily got haven’t necessarily got the inner resilience because as well as the empathy that you’re talking to talking about, which which does imply also some vulnerability. I agree with that, but you also alongside that need some resilience as well. And that and sometimes the most surprising people would have that resilience who didn’t on the surface initially look as though they might. They’re quite interesting reads really to look at the factors which uh which gave people that tuning into children, but also that sense of resilience as well.
Containment Needs Management Backing
Colby 44:57
Yes, I know Patrick, he has the caste system, and uh you know he’s he knows much more about this than than I would anticipate to learn uh yet in my in my working life. But it’s interesting those two dimensions you that you need both. You need both the sensitivity and the empathy that probably with without the um resilience there is vulnerability there in in relation to this work. And I want to link that back to supervision. And uh and in particular, I wonder what um Mrs. Dr. Dorisdahl thought about the role of containment in supervision. Uh whether she whether she whether she actively spoke about, talked about, practiced it, or or whether she she just did it. She was a good container, even though she may not directly um be mindful of of being that.
John 46:00
Well, she certainly understood the the concept of containment because that was a really crucial part of helping um emotionally unintegrated children. Um and interestingly, she probably I I think she would have also acknowledged the fact that she needed some containment herself in her work. Um because when you look at the Mulberry Bush and the way it started, the role of her husband working alongside her was crucial. And he did provide a kind of management cover within which she was able to do her work with the children. And at the Cotswold community when she came in, I mean she relied a lot on Richard Balburney, providing that overall containment in the organization. Um providing a sense of safety within which she could do her work. Because I mean she knew, and I mean, this would be again a difference, I suppose, because some therapists trying to do consultancy work haven’t always had the support of the management of the organization. And and that can be a very tricky dynamic.
Colby 47:10
Where does that very well?
John 47:12
Yeah. Mrs. Drysdale would have known that Richard Balburney would have been 100% behind her in the way she was working, and so there would be no there’d be no basic conflict there. And that would that would have been really, really crucial to the to her sense of containment in the work that she was doing. So and and and she she would say, I mean, again, something that comes to mind that she would say, look, you can’t you can’t do therapy without management. I mean, basically saying that that if if the children are in complete chaos, then how is a therapist going to be able to work in a situation like that? There’s got to be some sense of containment. That doesn’t mean to say everything’s got to be all kind of calm and steady, of course not. But it means that a general sense of containment um is crucial for for therapeutic work to take place. And um and so she would be supportive, she herself would be supportive of, say, the managers of the households, uh, other levels of management in the organization to provide that uh for their staff teams as well. Um so yeah, she would she wouldn’t probably have been particularly talking about containment of her work that she was giving, but you’re right, I think instinctively it was because going to see her, you know, as a team, you you could be you could be arriving on her doorstep feeling pretty either jaded or knocked about or overwhelmed or um and you felt that you you were pretty sure that you were going to be helped to see some light at the end of the tunnel and um and and come away feeling better than you went in to that consultancy, um both as a team and as and as individuals as well. Occasionally it wouldn’t always be like that because sometimes you would pick up on things that were being missed. And I mean to give you an example, I mean there might have been a time when a team would be feeling very um I don’t know, exasperated, frustrated, uh completely at a loss about a child, and there’d be a part of them in the team that would think, if only we could get rid of this child, everything would be alright. And Mrs. Drysdale wouldn’t play that game, and she would push that back at people. And and if there was a particularly difficult acting out from a child or a or a group, she would take the time to strip it back and look at what was being missed. Because her her but one of her basic tenets was um acting out of uh of children is is usually down to a breakdown of communication. And and if you if you agree with that, then the onus is on the grown-ups, the staff team to look at where they the the onus is on them to to be in good communication with children, um, particularly those children who find it difficult to trust. They you’ve got to meet them more than halfway in that case for to get good communication. Um so again, you you could go in there thinking, oh, if only Mrs. Drysdale would agree that this child’s got to go, and you’d come away thinking she ain’t gonna play that game. Um and and and and not only that, you could be somewhat chastised for missing something fundamental. And if only it would have been spotted earlier, you might not be in that position that you’re in now. Um so that could be quite tough to take that on.
Colby 50:55
Um but staff would be expected or otherwise would come back next week. Yeah, absolutely.
John 51:06
And they would be expected to to to really take that on board.
Colby 51:12
Yeah, I was wondering how much of that is expectation, but uh versus how much is that is well, you know, upon repr upon upon reflection, she has a point. And that was a useful conversation to have.
John 51:31
Well, yeah, there I think people would get to that, but probably initially they’ve they might not they might not see it entirely in that way. But then that was again the the sense of containment in the organization because um yeah, you’d have plenty of opportunity to talk it over. I mean, one of the advantages, I suppose, which we had then, and again that reflects the times that we were in, people worked very long hours, and an advantage in that was that you had time to reflect, to talk with each other. I mean, again, talking to people now working, it’s quite difficult to get teams together to have team meetings and so on, because people are working different hours and and and much shorter working weeks. And while I can understand the importance of that, and and for to help people not sort of get burnt out, nevertheless, it’s it does make sometimes doing all that kind of work together as a team that um which is also can be very rejuvenating if you miss out on that, you’re missing also a source of strength that can be there in working in a good team.
Colby 52:38
Um yeah, I wondered about that, and we’ve kind I’ve kind of hinted at it a bit already in this conversation that um I guess unless you work for the work in the organization, so you’re more of an internal consultant or rather than an external consultant. Um, so unless that is the case, you put I I can’t imagine that there are many organizations now that are having someone like Mrs. Docker Dryz, they’ll come in two to three uh days a week every week um in support of the work of the organization. And I I wonder what she would make of that.
John 53:20
Yeah, that’s a good question. I I don’t know. I think uh she would she would feel probably very frustrated by it. And but I mean there are I I mean having said what I said I mean when I went to to to the fostering organization that I worked with at ISB, one of the things that I noticed there, they had a great team of therapists working there, but mainly working with individual children. But but having learned the model that I had at the Cotswold community, I encouraged those therapists to also be be part of team discussions and to even if they weren’t. I mean, not that you know, only only a percentage of of children were actually seeing therapists in for individual therapy anyway, but there were an awful lot who could have benefited from therapist input if if only to support the carers. And and that was a model that I took from the Cotswold community and and saw how that could be developed, you know, in a different in a different setting. But it I still think that I still think there’s a really important place for that, for um in any organization to have a consultant that comes into work primarily with this with the staff team. Um and to have that sounding board with somebody who who’s chewed into the task, but who’s actually outside of it as well. And um yeah.
Team Formulation Splitting And Support
Colby 54:44
I agree. I and I agree very much so with the um the idea of having everyone in the organisation participate in the in the training, as you say, or the or the supervision or the meetings, uh, as occurred um at the Cotswold community. And I remember your story from last time about the drivers at ISP and and the mis their their their misalignment with the with the primary task. And yeah, I think um that again that that’s whether she would whether Mrs. Docker Dronesdown would would lament it um or otherwise, I I suspect she would. But um in this day and age uh of scarcity of resources and a lot of pressure on on organisations, service provider systems, um supervision and reflective supervision um and support in that way um is not always delivered uh very well, if at all. Um I know I’ve had people on the podcast who do perform that role and in organisations, and I think that’s great, but I particularly look at the the large statutory authorities in Australia, they’re state by state. In Ireland, it’s it’s TUSLA, the the the um nationwide job protection authority. Um in the UK, it’s the local authorities. And um you talk about the importance of retention. The the work we do this work at a at a cost. We give we give of ourselves all the time. And I think um you said it was a it’s a bit like supervision needs the supervision experience, or at least the meeting with the consultant experience, it is a bit like psychoanalysis, it’s a bit like therapy. And um lots of people have likened it to that. And I think that’s really a really important way to sustain people’s energy levels and enthusiasm and capacity to continue to perform the work over a period of time rather than get burnt out and if they can leave and do something else.
John 57:06
Yeah, I I I agree. And I mean when I when I think about the um I I referred earlier on to the way a staff team would would work on on the need assessment of a child and the importance of the whole team doing that together and and everybody and that would include it wouldn’t just include um the uh the care workers, it could also include the person some of the the ancillary workers in the in the in the household, because what was really quite important was to get a complete picture of the child, and we know that that children present different parts of themselves to different people, um and there might there might be a lot of um doubts about his child’s ability to learn and to function, only to find that actually with uh with with the gardener or with the cleaner or with one of the maintenance team, this child was showing quite different sorts of abilities, was actually much more tuned into sort of practical skills than than anything sort of academic, for example. And it was really important that that was fed into the need assessment. And if you didn’t do that, you were missing something really quite important. And I’m not sure who said it, Beyond, or probably s somebody who said, you know, it takes a group to understand an individual because we all it’s quite natural for us all to show different parts of ourselves to different people. Um and and that those going through need assessments together in a group like that was was just such an amazing kind of learning experience, and bringing the team together and and supporting one another, because again, the the way um emotionally unintegrated children um would one of their defenders as we know would be to would would be splitting process. And I can remember when I first started out in the work, it was in a in a hostel for for young people on probation. Um if if you were if you were on the C V receiving end of negativity, it was other members of the team could easily think it’s your lacking of ability that you you’re you’re seen as the as the bad one or the useless one, or um whereas if when you were in the need assessments, uh if someone was really having a hard time, you you you could support them in that, realizing that they were actually doing probably the most important therapeutic work, having to deal with all this kind of stuff coming at them, that they were they were at the heart of the of the emotional disturbance, um, rather than people who are being idealized and put on a pedestal and could do no wrong. And it that may look like a very comfortable place to be, but it’s actually everyone knows it’s not real. And um so again, that way that a team can work together to support people in what role they’re being given by the children and and not see it as some kind of lacking in them if they’re having a hard time. Um, you know, that’s that again comes out of I think the the understanding through working on this with with a consultant to to to to help people just sometimes see that sort of wood for the trees.
Colby 1:00:21
Um well, I think a hugely important role, and I I’m really pleased to have had you back on the podcast to talk more about the consultant role and in particular how it was embodied in uh Mrs. Dr. Jr.’s Demon. Um so I think that it’s probably a good point to uh wind up in the conversation to the many Johnny you uh you it’s not for you and then um and then we’ve got a little bit for the I I think I’m I’m gonna listen a minute with you last on um the first time um some uh other podcast guests or podcast guests introduced me to the fact that I was coming to coming to them from the future and I really like that.
John 1:01:08
Uh yes, yes.
Colby 1:01:11
Yes, and it’s it’s Monday for you, Tuesday for me. And uh but anyway, uh thank you very much.
Free Papers Book Plug And Closing
John 1:01:18
Let me just mention something before I get before we stop completely. That uh I I mean the papers written by Barbara Docker Drysdale uh are published in her books, but but I don’t think they’re they’re in print anymore. But there are several of her papers on my website which are completely free to access. So if anybody’s really interested, because what we haven’t really touched on today is the actual detail of the therapy. We’ve really been talking about her role more as consultant and so on and how that worked, and that’s been great. But I mean that somebody might be wanting to know more about the actual nature of the detailed nature of the therapy, and so I would I would encourage um people to have a look at it, have a look at her papers that are available. There are at least half a dozen on there, which uh you know oh, and the other thing, can I can I make a plug for for one of Patrick’s books? Um this one. I don’t know whether you can can you read that.
Colby 1:02:19
Yeah, yeah, therapeutic approaches in work with traumatized children and young people.John 1:02:24
Yep. Patrick wrote this book after he left the Cotswold community because he had he he had all the notes from a lot of the the staff meetings with Mrs. Drysdale and and the later uh consultant Paul Van Heeswick. And he he he brought them all together and and wrote a book and it really is a very, very detailed account of many aspects of the therapy of the day-to-day therapeutic care. And uh really again would recommend that to anybody who wants to sort of go into that in more detail.
Colby 1:02:55
Yeah, yeah, absolutely. Um yeah, very familiar myself with Patrick and and the work that he does, and uh uh and I indeed we did talk about him a little bit uh last time about his role in in with in formalizing or uh the the in-service training that that was done there for staff at the Cotswolds. But yeah, again, thank you thank you, John. And um I I mentioned this at the beginning before we started recording the um um one of the interesting things about this podcast is we’ve almost gotten a lot of people. Um we we we almost we we very much welcome you all um experience your your wisdom.
John:
I’m glad you gave me that job out every time and to to come and and talk with you because it has been uh an interesting and pleasurable experience, so thank you. Yeah, you’re welcome.
John’s Bio:
John was formerly a UKCP registered Psychotherapist and a full member of the British Psychotherapy Foundation (BPF). John was also the Chair of Trustees of the Gloucestershire Counselling Service and Trustee of the Planned Environment Therapy Trust and the Mulberry Bush Organisation. Between 1985 and 1999 John was the Principal of the Cotswold Community a pioneering therapeutic community for emotionally unintegrated boys. Thereafter, between 1999 and 2014 John was the Managing Director of Integrated Services Programme (ISP), the first therapeutic foster care programme in the UK.
Related Podcasts:
John’s first podcast:
Richard Rollinson:
Links:
John’s Website: https://www.johnwhitwell.co.uk/
Patreon: https://www.patreon.com/c/TheSecureStartPodcast
Podcast Blog Site: https://thesecurestartpodcast.com/
Podcast site: https://thesecurestartpodcast.buzzsprout.com
Secure Start Site: https://securestart.com.au/
Disclaimer:
Information reported by guests of this podcast is assumed to be accurate as stated. Podcast owner Colby Pearce is not responsible for any error of facts presented by podcast guests. In addition, unless otherwise specified, opinions expressed by guests of this podcast may not reflect those of the podcast owner, Colby Pearce. Finally, all references to case examples are anonymised to the extent that the actual case could not be identified, or are fictional but based on real-life examples for illustrative purposes, or have client consent to talk about in an educative context.
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